interesting thoughts...

[katster]

a discussion on #c got me thinking about this idea...

can one be a patriot and a global citizen at the same time? I honestly consider myself both, and don't have any trouble reconciling the two, mainly because I believe a patriot's job is to fix what's broken in his or her country. And right now the thing that is broken about my country is that we can't play nicely with the rest of the world. I want to fix this...

So, I'm opening the floor to discussion of this thought. Have fun.

Comments

[i.livejournal.com]

what's good for the earth is good for americans.

all people on earth should enjoy the same rights we take for granted.

so my answer is yes.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

You absolutely can be both. I certainly am.

Just as some folks think Catholics aren't Christian, though, some folks wouldn't consider me a patriot.

[millenia.livejournal.com]

I think it's possible to be both, yeah. If patriotism is defined as "pride in one's country", it's certainly possible to be proud of your country, but recognize that you live in a world community. The issue is when people read "patriotism" as "my nation must come first", which is more hyper-nationalism than pride. Sadly, the wonderful American propaganda machine has most of us deluded that it's the latter and not the former that's the "true" definition.

[ms-interpret.livejournal.com]

Well, as I was a big part of that discussion, you know my feelings. :) I've had more time to think on it, and I think it does all come down to what the definition of patriot is. To me, it implies a sort of zealous attitude that "My country is the best in the world". Once a person starts believing that, then how on earth can they be a world citizen?

To me, patriotism means nationalist pride - an "Us first" attitude. Claiming world citizenship and patriotism feels like "Do things our way. It's really best for the world". I'm *NOT* saying that's how you feel. I'm not saying that's how any of the people in channel feel. I'm saying that's what it feels like to me, within the definition of patriotism I have.

Personally, I like the country I live in. I like living here more than I would like living in a lot of other countries. But I'm *not* proud of us. Our human rights record isn't nearly as good as it should be. We don't look after our poor or our children as well as we should, and as for the rest of the planet, we don't seem to care much about them. We kiss the US's ass on just about everything. I'm utterly shocked that Chrétien didn't blindly follow Bush on this latest bit of warmongering. I'm sickened by most of the things my government does. So, no. I'm not a patriot. I'm not proud to be a member of this country. As much as I like living here, I'm not proud of it. And when I see people claiming pride in their countries, I wonder how they can reconcile that with what's going on in their countries and around the world.

I'm not making myself as clear as I'd like. I'm really going to have to think on this for a few days to see if I can clarify it at all.

"Pride is an established conviction of one's own paramount worth in some particular respect" Arthur Schopenhauer

This nails it, I think. Patriotism is pride. Being patriotic is the conviction of one's country's paramount worth. "We're more important than the rest of you".

Ramble over. :)
(I'm *so* glad we could discuss this and not get snippy at one another! :) Too many times I've had this conversation and seen all parties get very defensive and upset. I'm glad we're not doing that.)

Defining terms

[lirazel.livejournal.com]

Well, patriotism may be about pride... but I also think it's about love, and a determination to make a good place better.

I think the real problem is older and deeper... the ol' "We're US/They're just *them*" syndrome. It exists in every culture, and goes deep, deep, deep. Did you know that in every tribal language of the Americas, the word that the tribe call themselves translates as "human being", while the words for all other peoples are something else?

We seem to need to define ourselves by comparing ourselves to others, and defining ourselves as superior to what *they* are.

Now, if you can manage to love your country while seeing all the warts and sores, and if you can be happy to have your own particular ethnic/religious/national heritage without needing to define yourself as different from and superior to anyone else, then I think you can claim to be a patriot.

But this raises another question in my mind. There are clearly ways in which the culture/country I live in is superior to others. Am I supposed to endorse the stoning to death of "adulteresses" in Nigeria, just because the US record in human rights is not unsullied? Can't I be a little bit pleased that the entire world expects us to uphold a consistent, high standard precisely because we've come so far?

Don't get me wrong. I'm a child of the 60s and 70s, and I remember things like Kent State and the overthrow of Allende. I have no desire to see the U.S. become overtly preemptive. We're bad enough when we're covert.

You know, the Swedes used to look down their noses at the "racists" in the US--then a whole cityful of Turks moved to Sweden to work in construction (this was in the 80s) and all hell broke loose, because Turks live differently from Swedes. There are Turks in Germany whose families have been there for three generations, and they're still not allowed full citizenship.

The greatest lesson of history: there are no good guys. There's just us.